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viperella
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Reged: Feb 22
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A challenge to David
      #375847 - Thu Nov 14 2002 02:25 PM

David you come down here to LA and repeat what Scott accomplished and open up a club in LA and have it running for five years in LA or else shut the fuck up about Scott who is facing 20 years right now.

And by the way do anarchists really actually believe in free speech? I think not because you are the opinion police yourself when it comes to Scott Imler.

And since you've never actually asked him in person how he feels about marijuana prohibition then where do you get off claiming to know what his opinion is?

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******** Combustion lente -- Facilite votre roulage ********




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viperella
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Re: A challenge to David
      #375890 - Thu Nov 14 2002 03:08 PM

We really need you David. We need a totally morally superior person to come down and take on all of the federal mandatory minimum risk for us so there can be another cannabis club down here.

So please David put your money and your life where your enormous mouth is and come down to LA and show us all what a better man you are than Scott Imler.

We need another club down here. We need YOU!

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******** Combustion lente -- Facilite votre roulage ********




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davidmalmolevine
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Re: A challenge to David
      #375937 - Thu Nov 14 2002 03:47 PM

"David you come down here to LA and repeat what Scott accomplished and open up a club in LA and have it running for five years in LA or else shut the fuck up about Scott who is facing 20 years right now."

Sorry, I'm too busy dealing with destroying ALL the pot laws in MY OWN country. It sounds like nobody gets to deal pot in LA without selling out so I wouldn't do too well down there.....besides, I don't really see the point of wasting time arguing that sick people should have the right to smoke it, when what I really want is to see a war against harmless people ended. And that means dealing with the issue of healthy poor people dealing it. If healthy poor people can deal it, then the red tape that strangles sick people will automatically be removed. You folks dream too small for me.






"And by the way do anarchists really actually believe in free speech? I think not because you are the opinion police yourself when it comes to Scott Imler."

We put his cultural genocide sellout interview with MTV up at POT TV....is there any other shining Imler moments we're missing?.....you're welcome to post those too.






"And since you've never actually asked him in person how he feels about marijuana prohibition then where do you get off claiming to know what his opinion is? "

I listened to him on MTV. You should too, it sounds like. There's a link in the Chomsky thread that will lead you right to it.



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"I have struggled against tyranny. I didn't do that in order to substitute another." Desmond Tutu

Edited by davidmalmolevine (Thu Nov 14 2002 04:01 PM)

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davidmalmolevine
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Re: A challenge to David
      #375941 - Thu Nov 14 2002 03:50 PM

"So please David put your money and your life where your enormous mouth is and come down to LA and show us all what a better man you are than Scott Imler.
We need another club down here. We need YOU! "


If I don't have to deal with the sell-out defence committee, I can better prepare myself for the supreme court....If I win there, even you folks in LA may hear about it - and THAT may help much more than if another sell-out club opens up.





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"I have struggled against tyranny. I didn't do that in order to substitute another." Desmond Tutu

Edited by davidmalmolevine (Thu Nov 14 2002 03:51 PM)

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palmspringsbum
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Re: A challenge to David
      #375968 - Thu Nov 14 2002 04:14 PM

God you're full of SHIT!

If McCormick and McWilliams were such fucking great muckity-mucks why didn't they start their own damn club instead of trying to crash Scott's.

Probably my last post here, I've offended A STAR!

Expect to be bannished any time now....


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U.S. Out of California!

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davidmalmolevine
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Re: A challenge to David
      #375998 - Thu Nov 14 2002 04:51 PM

I take it by your post that you are not offended by Scott saying "all pot should be taken with a doctor's supervision"? I hope I offend all the monopolists away from here, quite frankly - I wouldn't be doing my job if we pandered our facilities too the genocidal sell-out crowd.



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"I have struggled against tyranny. I didn't do that in order to substitute another." Desmond Tutu

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palmspringsbum
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376006 - Thu Nov 14 2002 04:57 PM

I don't see you calling Gary Johnson a narc.

Face it, you been had by the McCormick/McWilliams crowd.

Disagreeing with Scott over medicinal vs. recreational is one thing. I disagree about that. Calling him a narc because he refused to let some well-healed opportunists cash in on his baby is something else entirely.


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davidmalmolevine
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376016 - Thu Nov 14 2002 05:11 PM


"I don't see you calling Gary Johnson a narc."

Was he a narc? I didn't know that. You gotta source for that?




"Fce it, you been had by the McCormick/McWilliams crowd."

It's a bigger and better crowd than the Imler crowd. You don't hear Dennis saying "all pot should be taken under the supervision of a doctor" do you?





"isagreeing with Scott over medicinal vs. recreational is one thing. I disagree about that."

It's a pritty big "one thing" - statements like Scotts are inaccurate, weak, and embolden the police and give the doctors and pharmacists a monopoly.




"alling him a narc because he refused to let some well-healed opportunists cash in on his baby is something else entirely."

I called him a narc cause he talked in exchange for his red-tape doctor worshipping club could stay in business when he should have just shut his mouth and stood by his community and not tried to make deals with the evil empire. In every other scapegoated culture, they call that type of "cooperatorator" a "rat".

Truth hurts, don't it?



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"I have struggled against tyranny. I didn't do that in order to substitute another." Desmond Tutu

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viperella
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376022 - Thu Nov 14 2002 05:15 PM

David tell me -- do you imagine that you can hurt Scott Imler?

Do you really think that you can hurt him with your words?

The only people you have hurt are the members of the club. You can't hurt SCott because nothing you can do compares with 20 years.

But you are a smart man and you know darn well that you can't hurt Scott.

So I have to conclude that the real reason why you are slagging on Scott is because you want to hurt the members of the LA club. There is no other rational reason for your behavior.

Do you know how your behavior hurts the members of the LA club?

Because it makes them ALL suspects and it really throws a huge monkey wrench into the dynamics of pot activism in all of Southern california. As someone who has tried organizing in LA, I can tell you that this bullshit campaign against Scott is the real reason why we don't have a cohesive activist team down here.

The harm you are doing is real. I live with it. . Face up to it.

You people who sit up in Canada and flap your lips narc narc narc are really doing some damage down here.

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******** Combustion lente -- Facilite votre roulage ********




Edited by viperella (Thu Nov 14 2002 05:17 PM)

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palmspringsbum
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376026 - Thu Nov 14 2002 05:19 PM

It's a bigger and better crowd than the Imler crowd.

Then why didn't they start their own club and leave him alone?



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U.S. Out of California!

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GrizzyGraehm
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376042 - Thu Nov 14 2002 05:30 PM

ok ok ok ok ok ok ok

shut up. seriously.

waaaaaah i need medical pot...then go and buy some, better yet grow some, even better than that just go shoot your self so i dont hear your whining.

Sell-out this, sell-out that, wtf is with this sell-out shit. You sound like a god damned music critic.....enough.

Canadians from my experience, especially the pot activists, are nothing more than people filled with a huge hatred for the united states and its people. I dont hate canada for the fucking zebra muscles choking out my beautiful great lakes...you sit on a pedastal named canada....you think your higher and better than americans because smoking weed is barely a crime...but guess what it still is.

Cannabis Culture is a great magazine a great community and a great knowledge source. But its constant slandering and bashing of america and its public do nothing to help it gain support. Rethink your ways.

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"Knowledge is accumilated like resin in bongs." HAHA YES!

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palmspringsbum
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376043 - Thu Nov 14 2002 05:32 PM

DAVID HASN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTION. HE'S AVOIDING IT.

Why didn't McCormick & McWilliams start their own club?


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CO_Cannabis
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376425 - Fri Nov 15 2002 06:47 AM

As we fight amongst ourselves, the enemy grows stronger.

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Helping The Rockie Mountains Stay High!




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Lance_Lasheras
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376440 - Fri Nov 15 2002 07:31 AM

Instead of combining resources in the war against prohibition , you're starting civil fueds.

Is there any point to this?

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"He who makes a beast of himself , escapes the horror of being a man " http://www.ecnal.ca/

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RedeyeBurnsting
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376559 - Fri Nov 15 2002 10:45 AM

i honestly think not addressing the issues around scott imler earlier has helped this blow up now. It's very hard to know what is the 'truth' or just sum1's version of it. Since the friction between Viprella and Chris Bennet a few months back about this issue, I have personally wondered what the truth was behind the story. If scott really did turn a dime on Renee' then he deserves all the guff he gets for it. How could we even post him here in any positive light if that is true is beyond me. I like Viprella alot and I found the DEA breakfast thing they did to be genuine and brave, they seemed legitamately nervous and stuck it out anyhow. Now if scott truly is a rat then he should just be beheaded from the LA movement, let them pick a new avatar and get on with what is real. I don't know enough about the truth or history of this issue to have an opinion but i do thing it is something that should be addressed, even on these forums, just so it doesn't sit below the surface festering. any rat should be seen as a rat and shown the door. If scott made deals with the devil then he has to face the consequences of the devils style of deal making. viperella if scott is innocent and doing good work down there then interview him and let him tell his side of the story. there is no other way his name will clear with all the evidence people feel implicates him (i.e. police report with him listed as a witness vs renee etc). I am just a regular viewer so i don't know the big answers all i know is that unless he says something in his defense than people will see him thru the lens of how others describe him. if yer a friend of scotts and want to stick with him no matter what then fine but just dont expect people to look the other way when they hear incriminating info about him. I would love to see this story uncovered so it can go away. I hope viperella and the la crew find their way thru this crisis, and i hope they stay conjoined with the canadian leg of the movement, so lets either get the truth out or agree to live without it peacably. also, the criticism aimed toward the canadian crew having ego issues i feel have some validity. i am not saying that to clip anybody's wings I am saying it because it is actually a weakness not a strength. letting go of egos always makes a system containing many people that much stronger. real heros dont care if they are acknowledged imo.
god bless us all
Redeye 8*)_~


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"Absolutism isn't very exceptional"


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chrisbennettModerator
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376682 - Fri Nov 15 2002 12:56 PM

Far from being an opportunist, peter McWilliams was a heroic libertarian and a loved philosopher and writer. Suffering from Cancer and Aids, he ended up choking to death on his own vomit after bail conditions were instilled (with bail being posted with a morgage on his mother's house), which prevented him from using the medical marijuana he used to ease the nausea produced by the medicines he required. Any person who testified against this great individual and aided the Feds in doing so, is in my eyes responsible for those deeds.

Todd McCormick is a 7 times cancer survivor who believes heart and soul in the cannaibs that has aided in easing his own discomoforts. he has devoted his life to studying the propagation and healing properties of this sacred plant.

For someone using a nick name in order to show these heroes such disrespect, especially since one of them is now a martyr for our cause, and the other has been in jail for 4 long years, is cowardly and uncalled for.

As for Imler.... somethings are just better left unsaid.

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palmspringsbum
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376702 - Fri Nov 15 2002 01:23 PM

I don't know enough about the truth or history of this issue to have an opinion but i do thing it is something that should be addressed, even on these forums, just so it doesn't sit below the surface festering.

Absolutely.

I'm not a fan of Scott's. His Hollywood Hunger strike appeared to me (from a distance) to be more of a setback than anything else. They announced a hunger strike, got a lot of press, and then announced they got hungry and decided to call it off....for instance. In my opinion they'd have been better off never to have done it in the first place.

My plan, in fact, was (and still is) to use my nonprofit 501(c)3 company, the MEDICAL BOTANICAL FOUNDATION, to get medical marijuana into pharmacies, just like any other medication.

If someone came to me (and I was a director of a club) trying to sell me weed and I knew this, I'd turn white too. Even Mr. Let's Keep Records Scott would realize the implications if he did business with such a business.

Through the MEDICAL BOTANICAL FOUNDATION I intended (and still do) to be "the largest supplier of medical marijuana in the country..." but only legally and only though pharmacies after medical marijuana had been made a Schedule II prescription drug.

This is the person accusing Scott of monopolistic practices?

Duh!

After Todd's bust on July 29, 1997, the first federal medical marijuana bust since the passage of 215 in November 1996,
I immediately donated everything I had to an organization I still believed was dedicated to getting medical marijuana
to the sick, the Los Angeles Cannabis Buyer's Club.


Translation, he tried to unload his -evidence- on Scott, and thereby implicate him after Scott had repeatedly refused to have anything to do with him. He tried to set Scott and the West Hollywood Club up. This is the person accusing Scott of being a snitch?

In reply to:


"110. On or about August, 1997, in Los Angeles, California, defendant PETER McWILLIAMS attempted to distribute numerous marijuana plants, grow lights and other equipment to the Los Angeles Cannabis Buyer's Club in order to prevent the discovery of the marijuana grow at the 8165 Mannix residence.

"111. In or about August, l997, at the 8165 Mannix residence, defendants PETER McWILLIAMS and ANDREW SCOTT HASS, distributed processed marijuana, numerous grow lights, light movers, fans, timers and electrical equipment to employees of the Los Angeles Cannabis Buyer's Club in order to prevent the discovery of the marijuana grow at the 8165 Mannix residence."

Here, I'm giving Imler all this stuff for free, and all the while he's freely talking to the DEA about my donations.
The lights, light movers, etc. I donated, but no "processed marijuana."




You been had Vansterdamn.

I can guarantee you that Andrew Scott Hass never told the feds any of this,
which leaves the source of information as "employees of the Los Angeles Cannabis Buyer's Club."
What I had offered to do, in fact, was install a state-of-the-art hydroponic system at the Club as a donation.


Oh? Sounds to me like Scott smelled a rat form the beginning. How do we know it wasn't McWilliams or McCormick or Boje that gave them this information.

Fact is, from what I've heard everything Scott did was on the up & up. His fued with Dennis over record-keeping, his medicinal good recreational bad philosophy...everything points to him being a total blue-stocking and not hiding anything...

...and knowing this, McWilliams & McCormick were fools to attempt to deal with him or have anything to do with him. And doubly fools for expecting him to lie about their overtures.

As I said before, it looks to me like McCormick & McWilliams repeatedly attempted to involve Imler in their racket and he repeatedly refused to be involved. Then they tried to bring him down with them by attempting to give him their equipement....

From what I've been told there was no stiuplation that anyone at the Bel-Air place have a medical neccessity or recommendation for cannabis and David has all but admitted this himself.

For them to attempt to hide their party under Scott's skirts and legitimize their mercenary operation as a non-profit under the auspices of medical marijuana and the West Hollywood Club...well, if that's what was going on and it looks like it to me...well; looks to me like they tried to use Scott and the L.A. Club to not only make a buck but eliminate the competition.


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U.S. Out of California!

Edited by palmspringsbum (Fri Nov 15 2002 01:39 PM)

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palmspringsbum
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376710 - Fri Nov 15 2002 01:34 PM

Well, Scott managed to get West Hollywood to donate him a building and condone his club. And their public defender is willing to represent him to the Supreme Court if neccessary.

Now, if McWilliams & McCormick were such heroes and so up & up, why couldn't they get some city or other local government to back their scheme? Why were they trying to steal Scott's reputation?

And why are everyone of you not only refusing to answer, but ignoring my question? WHY DIDN'T McWILLIAMS AND McCORMICK START THEIR OWN CLUB?

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U.S. Out of California!

Edited by palmspringsbum (Fri Nov 15 2002 01:35 PM)

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chrisbennettModerator
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376717 - Fri Nov 15 2002 01:41 PM

"How do we know it wasn't McWilliams or McCormick or Boje that gave them this information." (Note palmspringsburn felt bad about this statement and edited it out)
So now your trying to imply that my wife Renee who is a refugee because she didn't want to be forced to rat, Todd who is in jail or Peter who is dead are rats. Pretty easy when you are using a fake name. With the way your so defensive about someone who testified against fellow activists, (on record and lots of that to boot), and the way you are totally anonymous about your real identity, leaves one to suspect that maybe your a rat?
If you are going to mak such uncalled for accussations, then maybe you should put your name to them so they can be addressed person to person, after all we are all only as good as our reputatuion.

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chrisbennettModerator
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376724 - Fri Nov 15 2002 01:46 PM

"Well, Scott managed to get West Hollywood to donate him a building and condone his club. And their public defender is willing to represent him to the Supreme Court if neccessary."

Is the Internal revenue Investigation on Scott over? I understand there were some serious questions there?

"Now, if McWilliams & McCormick were such heroes and so up & up, why couldn't they get some city or other local government to back their scheme? Why were they trying to steal Scott's reputation? "

They were doing there own thing, writing about and studying the production of marijuana, funded by themselves and supported by many individuals. As they still are.

"And why are everyone of you not only refusing to answer, but ignoring my question? WHY DIDN'T McWILLIAMS AND McCORMICK START THEIR OWN CLUB? "

Who is to say they wouldn't of if they hadn't been busted. They were working on a project that would likely have worked into other projects. This was early in Prop 215, and many things were just begining.

Why didn'y you start a club Mr.Anonymous?

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palmspringsbum
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376727 - Fri Nov 15 2002 01:48 PM

I use a pen-name because I'm poor, on disability. I don't live in a Bel-Air mansion with decorative pot plants...I rent. And I couldn't live with myself if my actions resulted in my landlady's house being taken...

...but I knew this was coming.

Why you want my name? So you can snitch me off? Well, I've got a prescription now, though it took me 6 years to get it.

And why are you attacking me instead of answereing my question: WHY DIDN'T McCormick & McWilliams start their own damn club?


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U.S. Out of California!

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chrisbennettModerator
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376732 - Fri Nov 15 2002 01:52 PM

"I use a pen-name because I'm poor, on disability. I don't live in a Bel-Air mansion with decorative pot plants...I rent. And I couldn't live with myself if my actions resulted in my landlady's house being taken..."

Why aren't you a success like peter was?

"Why you want my name? So you can snitch me off? "

No, because your badmouthing good people who accomplished a lot well just as sick as you. And if you are going to do so, you should at least be as brave and open as they were.

"WHY DIDN'T McCormick & McWilliams start their own damn club?"
I did answer that. Now, why don'y you open a club?

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palmspringsbum
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376738 - Fri Nov 15 2002 01:59 PM

You know, after The Club re-opened after being busted I found myself on one of those motorized trollies with Imler and his crew. They didn't know me or who I was, and I from listening to them ... well, they struck me as a bunch of catty old vindictive queens. Not anyone I'd want to know or have anything to do with. Or anyone I'd trust. Their petty catty cuts of Dennis truly offended me.

And I wish I hadn't gotten into this...but the fact remains anyone with any connection to reality could see that McCormick & McWilliams were pushing the envelope into the ozone - that they were flagrantly flaunting the law and most likely were heading for a big fall.

You got to keep in my that L.A. is not a city, not in the sense San Francisco is. And it is the town famous for Rodney King and Bill (I meant Darryl, or whatever his name is) Gates and the Rampart scandal. In many ways it is somewhere to the right of Alabama.

Sigh...I wish I'd never gotten involved in this argument but it seems very clear to me that McCormick & Mcwilliams were trying to cash in on Scott's club (John Entwistle says so in so many words - and I know him, and I trust him...he does not make public statements casually, and neither is he a fool.)



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U.S. Out of California!

Edited by palmspringsbum (Fri Nov 15 2002 06:59 PM)

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chrisbennettModerator
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376743 - Fri Nov 15 2002 02:04 PM

"but the fact remains anyone with any connection to reality could see that McCormick & McWilliams were pushing the envelope into the ozone - that they were flagrantly flaunting the law and most likely were heading for a big fall."

Have you ever met a guy called Marc Emery? It's all about pushing the envelope. How about David malmo Levine who you've ben slagging? Thank God for the Envelope Pushers!

Those who sit back and anonymously criticize the Envelope Pushers, it is they who are the burden of this movement!

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palmspringsbum
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376757 - Fri Nov 15 2002 02:17 PM

Now, why don'y you open a club?

1) I don't have any backing. I haven't even been able to supply myself with cannabis for weeks now. I've been out. I've had two manic episodes over the last week as a result.

2) I would never even think about it without a good lawyer on retainer. And when I say good I'm talking about Tony Serra or David Nick.

3) Politically, and realistically it's the wrong time.

If I had backing and support of the local authorities and the representation of a good lawyer, and there was an injuction against the feds from interefering I most certainly would.

But the fact is I have been hounded for 6 years now and been run out of my home not once, not twice, but at least three times. I've had my place broken into and everything smashed. I've recently had police refuse to honor a restraining order and been evicted and forced to move. I've had to sit home alone day after day for months going hungry, without medicine.

I've been too busy keeping a roof over my head to do anything else. I'm currently having to budget in order to have gas to go to the local MAPP meetings. And I generally go hungry the last week or so of the month.

On the one hand I admire you folks...but you're starting to turn my stomach.

Your videos are great - the quality, variety and quantity are superb. And having them available on a web site is truly a great service. But you seem to be terribly insular to me. You've embraced the ones that fled the heat and are trashing the ones that stayed here to fight.

This is wrong...and it could very well backfire on you.



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U.S. Out of California!

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chrisbennettModerator
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376765 - Fri Nov 15 2002 02:26 PM

"You've embraced the ones that fled the heat and are trashing the ones that stayed here to fight.

This is wrong...and it could very well backfire on you."

I was thinking this of you. I feel nothing but compassion for your situation and you can count that like David does, and as Peter and Todd did, I too will continue to push the envelope in order to free those opressed by this War on Drugs like yourself. Let us put an end to this slagging.

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palmspringsbum
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376826 - Fri Nov 15 2002 03:33 PM

Besides, if I told you my name you wouldn't believe it...


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Re: A challenge to David
      #376829 - Fri Nov 15 2002 03:40 PM

Give me your initials and I'll see if I can gues ;-)

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chrisbennettModerator
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376855 - Fri Nov 15 2002 04:20 PM

Gilligan? Little Buddy? Is that you?

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viperella
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376907 - Fri Nov 15 2002 05:24 PM

This is the choice you are makign Chris:

You are choosing that is is now impossible for me to continue to hold my head up as an acitivist in this communtiy.

I think I need to retire as an activist right now because obviously Scott's reputation and your problems with the LA club make it completely impossible for me to withstand this emotionally.

I can't continue like this.

Every time I get a big project started -- you guys start up on Scott.

Why is that Chris? Why is it that every time I try to get a big rpoject up, you srat on Scott? Is it because you deliberately want me to drop everything and come and defend myself.

because if he is guilty then I benefited from his actions and I am guilty too and you need to tell me right now to get the goddamned hell off of this board ASAP and leave marijuana activism behind forever.

Stand behind what you say. This is what you want. I am here defending my life. I am in pain. I am here defending myself

You cannot hurt Scott. I am the only one here whom you can actually hurt and cause pain to with your campaign so i conclude that I must be the one that you want to hurt, and you want me to quit what I am doing.

--------------------
******** Combustion lente -- Facilite votre roulage ********




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davidmalmolevine
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Re: A challenge to David
      #376926 - Fri Nov 15 2002 05:38 PM


"Every time I get a big project started -- you guys start up on Scott."

I'm not going to talk about Scott anymore - "if you can't say something nice..."

But let's get one thing straight. YOU brought up Scott after slagging Noam Chomsky for ten posts. If you don't bring him up again, you probably won't hear bad things about him. I included the post you brought him up in because you seem to have forgotten.

And one more thing.... you deal out just as much "emotional" stress with your baseless slags on Chomsky as our base-full slags on Scott. If you can't handle a meaningful dialog about movement strategy, you're in the wrong movement. We need open dialog and activists willing to be open to criticism if this thing is going to work at all.




In Pot TV forum:
Re: Noam Chomsky [re: davidmalmolevine] Reply

Posted by viperella (old hand)
Posted on 10/24/02 10:51 AM



What's espcially tragic to me David is that YOU are a legitimate dissident in ways that Chomsky will never be, because he would never choose to make the kind of sacrifice necessary to be a real dissident.

Chomsky chose to become an academic and get tenure nd be protected from the whole world in the university tenure coccoon.

You, David, have made more risky choices. People like Ed Rosenthal, Scott Imler, Bryan Epis, Steph Sherer have also made risky choices to oppose the government, to oppose those in power, without protection.

The real dissidents are in this movement.

And frankly I think you dishonor your own self to call Chomsky by a term of honor that he has not earned by risking anything real in his life.

He's a compelling writer, he's a strong critic of those in power, but he is not a dissident.

He is not at risk in any way, while yours and most everyone elses here is at risk in very major ways.



--------------------
"I have struggled against tyranny. I didn't do that in order to substitute another." Desmond Tutu

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